Thursday, March 08, 2007

Donkey or Respectable Play - You Tell Me

Played in three tournaments tonight - K9 Freeroll at Vegas 24/7, CC's Thursday Bash at PokerStars, and Riverchasers Tour Event #5 at Full Tilt. Shouldn't have played all three at once, but what the heck. Results were better than the rest of the week, but I fell short of cashes at CC's and Riverchasers.

K9: 30th place - 76 players
CC's: 5th place - 18 players (paid 3)
Riverchasers: 8th place - 54 players (paid 6)

Now ... at CC's Bash, xkm1245 was not very happy with the result of a hand. I am posting it here with my commentary. You tell me - donkey play? Comments welcome.

PokerStars Game #8807979192: Tournament #44615509, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2007/03/08 - 22:25:04 (ET)
Table '44615509 2' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 2: xkm1245 (1120 in chips)
Seat 4: DrawFlush (3214 in chips)
Seat 5: jjok (2455 in chips)
Seat 6: hoyazo (1780 in chips)
Seat 7: AlCantHang (4663 in chips)
Seat 9: lightning36 (2173 in chips) lightning36: posts small blind 50
xkm1245: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to lightning36 [4h Qc] (This hand will suck.)
DrawFlush: folds
jjok: folds
hoyazo said, "thats horrible xkm."
hoyazo: folds
AlCantHang: folds
lightning36: calls 50 (No calls or raises. I'll call for 50 chips.)
hoyazo said, "hate to be a part of that"
xkm1245: checks
*** FLOP *** [5s 3h 2c] (No flush draw on the board)
lightning36: checks (Open-ended straight draw. I'll check.)
xkm1245: bets 200
lightning36: calls 200 (No pre-flop raise and all small cards, so I'll bet he now has a pair. Little chance he has A-4 or 6-4, in which case I get killed. Do I call 200 out of 2073 chips and hope for an A or 6 which will probably get me his stack, or perhaps a Q which should win me the hand? Eleven outs -- yeah, pay to see one more card.)
*** TURN *** [5s 3h 2c] [As] (Ding)
lightning36: checks
xkm1245 said, "i'm gonna be in waffles mindstate soon, hoy" (Most likely sooner than you think.)
xkm1245: bets 819
lightning36: raises 819 to 1638 (Looks like the big hand I waited for.)
xkm1245: calls 1 and is all-in
hoyazo said, "yeah"
*** RIVER *** [5s 3h 2c As] [9d]
xkm1245 said, "nice one"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
lightning36: shows [4h Qc] (a straight, Ace to Five)
xkm1245: shows [Ad 5d] (two pair, Aces and Fives)
hoyazo said, "oy"
lightning36 collected 2240 from pot
jjok said, "gg"
xkm1245 [observer] said, "****ing Q4" (I wouldn't be happy either.)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2240 Rake 0
Board [5s 3h 2c As 9d]
Seat 2: xkm1245 (big blind) showed [Ad 5d] and lost with two pair, Aces and Fives
Seat 4: DrawFlush folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: jjok folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: hoyazo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: AlCantHang (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: lightning36 (small blind) showed [4h Qc] and won (2240) with a straight, Ace to Five

Now -- I can understand xkm1245 getting pissed at this beat. I would have, too. My question: Was this a donkey play on my part? Putting up 50 chips to see the flop? Calling a 200 chip bet with an open-ended straight draw and an overcard -- in my mind eleven outs?

You make the call. And yes -- I would do it again.

Home Game This Friday Night

I am looking forward to my monthly home game tomorrow night. I have a long streak of cashes and finished second last month. With things all topsy-turvy at work, this game will be a source of refuge.


Blogger Mr Subliminal said...

Apparently the need for justification by the winner of a hand has become a repeating pattern in blogger games. The loser demands an explanation. If this is for educational, rather than egotistic, purposes, then fine. But I digress.

(1) The pot bet of 200 is meant to dissuade flush and straight draws by not giving sufficient odds to chase.

(2) The fact that you had T2,000 is irrelevant. It's his stack of T1,000 that is important when discussing implied odds.

(3) It's 11 outs, not 12.

(4) There were mistakes made by both players in this hand.

(5) Next hand.

12:20 AM  
Blogger lightning36 said...

Thanks for the comment. I did notice the outs were wrong and had already corrected it.

Although I always tested out at the 99th percentile in math, I use my psychology background, perhaps to my detriment, in poker.

btw - no one demanded an explanation and I am too old to ever again worry about justifying my actions to anyone. However, I do have a desire to become a better poker player, and am therefore appreciative of your comment.

12:34 AM  
Blogger Mr Subliminal said...

Oh, I nearly forgot :

(6) I like your taste in music.

12:41 AM  
Blogger The Average Joe said...

Here's my 2 cents:

He way overbet the pot which is usually a sign of weakness. I mean, I wouldn't put him on a flopped str8 with that bet... In tourny play, and putting him on weakness, I might even reraise to get him to fold a pair of 2s, 3s, or a str8 draw (but that might not have worked since he was short stacked)

One things for sure... if this was FTP or Stars, lord knows I'd put it in cuz there, 'you gotta put it in with the worst of it and go up from there' as Mike "The Mouth" says ;-)

1:31 AM  
Blogger WindBreak247 said...

With *nobody* else in the pot you can think of it 1 of 2 ways.

1) I've got 3 to 1 to see a flop with Q4
2) I have to pay more money w/QUEEN bleeping FOUR to see a flop. Cya!

I probably would've opted for the 2nd option, myself, without at least an 8 kickin', but went the route of option 1, and I don't think you should be forsaken for that one bit.

The call after the flop is questionable, but with implied odds isn't a terrible call. If you hit, you're getting the pot at least, if not his whole stack, so there's no reason not to peel one off if you feel like it. Plus, like the previous commenter said, the pot overbet reeks of weakness.

If you're on the other end of it it blows and is horribly unlucky, but I don't think you deserve to be chastized for it.

10:24 AM  
Blogger SirFWALGMan said...

I think you had a great hand and played it well. He should have known he was beat when the Ace came (which I am sure he did) and was just angry at a bad night. Probably did not even notice you were the SB. Your not risking too much with the 200 bet and you got paid off when you hit so it all worked out.

10:26 AM  
Blogger KajaPoker said...

I guess his first mistake was not to raise pre-flop to see where he is. A5 can get you into a lot of trouble when you have no information.

I guess your 200 call was ok, because you had enough outs to improve. If this was the turn instead of the flop I would probably fold if I missed my draw.

He should have checked behind you on the turn. Since he has no idea what you have you could easily hold a 4 and have the second nuts. No reason for him to raise it up like that.

I think you played it great and got paid the max.

1:48 PM  
Blogger Mr Subliminal said...

Overbet the pot : In a No Limit game, to make a bet that is larger than the size of the pot.

Two previous commenters mention "overbetting the pot" on the flop. There was 200 in the pot so a 200 bet is "betting the pot", not an overbet.

4:51 PM  
Blogger lightning36 said...

Thanks for the insight, guys.

It is amazing how fast things run through your mind when you only have a short time to make a decision.

I neglected to mention that this hand was played about 1/3 of the way through the tourney. I was really wanting to add to my stack to have a little muscle before things got too late. The math is good as a guide, but I was willing to donk off some chips and take my chances at a big hand to try to go deeper in the tourney.

1:12 AM  

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